Hey there, super Sober Heroes, it's your host, sober Steve, the podcast guy, here with 1,026 days of sobriety for the last time in an intro. Yes, after this I will be caught up and ready to take on the world as I do some traveling and coaching and growth to help improve this podcast going forward. But with these intros ahead, I am still happy to report that there is many more things that I could think of that I'm grateful in my life for today, most recently being the friendships I have, both new and old, coming together at Disco Drag Brunch in town in Sarasota this past Sunday as of when I'm recording it, it was St Patrick's Day weekend, so that will date it, since this episode will come out quite a few weeks from now but it was a great time where I was able to go with friends from my senior living world in the stage of my life before I made all these big, amazing and wonderful changes back in October, november, to level up my life and my sobriety. And in addition to being able to go with them to this event, I went with a friend that I was close with years ago, that we've gotten back in touch with because of kickball, and I was able to know other people from between my church and project pride and kickball there, and it was nice being part of the queer community in Sarasota. I know that I've shared how that can kind of come and go at times depending on your perception of it, because we're not a giant big city with these huge organizations, you know, that have events on a weekly or a daily basis and we don't have like a huge gate club necessarily to call our own. But there are queer things going on in Sarasota and there are queer people who are awesome that I'm connecting with and it was a great time being able to celebrate both the old friendships and the new friendships together while also enjoying an amazing drag performance.
Speaker 1:So with that I am going to head over a little bit earlier than normal into my interview with Andy that I recorded over this past weekend, and the reason why I'm doing that is because a lot of the extra stuff that I'm sharing about or reflecting on I'm actually going to reflect on after the episode interview, because it was information that he really got me thinking. After a couple other interviews I began really noticing a trend with him that I wanted to dive into a little bit more. So make sure you enjoy this amazing interview with Andy, where we across the space time continuum of recording in both the Eastern time zone and the New Zealand time zone, and enjoy it and then stick around afterwards while I reflect on some research I've done since my interview with him. So enjoy and I'll see you soon. Hey there, super Sober Heroes, it's your host, steve, here with Andy. Welcome to the show, andy.
Speaker 2:Hi, how are you?
Speaker 1:I am doing well. I am glad that we were able to get our wacky time zone differences sorted out and get this recording set up.
Speaker 2:I know I live in the future.
Speaker 1:Yes, you do.
Speaker 2:You are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, it is right now tonight where you are, so how did today go over there in New? Zealand?
Speaker 2:Oh, it was fine. I had a photo shoot and, like the content creation and yeah, it was really cool. Got to collab with heaps of really awesome other creatives. So, yeah, it was awesome. Then I'm making my job.
Speaker 1:Yes, if you were watching, you get to see Andy working on one of his projects while we do the recording. So it is fun watching the crocheting. I know that I've tried to do that. I got a Wubbles kit sometime in early sobriety and I tried those and it was not for me right now, but I love that you are doing it so efficiently as you can talk.
Speaker 2:I like it really helps me focus on things or think, or if I have to like, or also get super distracted. But I started this one. I got sober. I've done since I've been sober. I never used to do it before.
Speaker 1:Oh well, I can definitely see how that helps. I know that keeping my hands busy has always been something. I've always been doing something with my fingers while I'm talking with someone or in class to help me focus. But when I got sober, lego did it for me. So I see yeah, I built so many Lego my first few months of sobriety. We have extra rooms in the house dedicated to them now. It was a very expensive hobby.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, I did Lego for a bit. I made the flowers. You know those flowers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I've got a group that I got over it, so it's just sitting in my wardrobe.
Speaker 1:Excellent, I need to get back into it. Yeah, well, what would you say is your favorite part of being sober today?
Speaker 2:Today. I think my favorite part of being sober today is like Like hitting the milestone. You know like that I needed to hit and then everything just gets better Like every day. My routines just are more ingrained. I've got like really awesome friends. I don't have to explain myself heaps, you know like if we go out or Like people, just know they just you know if I'm at the pub.
Speaker 2:They just know. Like I actually have friends of mine now that will watch bartenders, especially if we're in a bar like that, we don't really know and they'll watch them when they're pouring my drinks. Just you know how sometimes you're kind of like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard like experiences of people who, like accidentally were served alcohol because the waiter just was on autopilot or the bartender didn't get the message and stuff. So I love that you have people looking out for you like that. I know that, yeah, coming out, it was almost like a whole other coming out experience coming out as an alcoholic. So it's nice being on the other side and just having everyone kind of know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was cool. It's cool. Yeah, I mean, it's Every day's just got better. Like you know, the beginning part of it was shit, I think, but it just gets better and better and better. Like it can't you know. Yeah, it's just, I can't imagine drinking or taking drugs now, like yeah. I almost want to say to everybody who are, who you know, like I'm like, oh, let me help you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's certainly hard, because I know that until like the very end, when it got really really bad, even when people would try and help me, I wasn't ready for help. It had to get to the point where I needed to ask for it. But tell us a little bit about your journey to sobriety and what that was like.
Speaker 2:So I started taking drugs and drinking when I was really young. So I would have been like I think I started drinking when I was about 12 or 13. And then taking drugs when I was 14, 15. And then, yeah, I just it was always a part of my life, like always. You know, just I couldn't imagine my life, not, it was just normal.
Speaker 2:But then the older I got, the more kind of I wouldn't say I even got into it, it was just I needed more and more and more to get the same effect. Right, and because I was diagnosed late ADHD, like I didn't know I had it till I was well, maybe, like just after COVID, I went to the doctor because I was feeling like you know, anyway, yeah, and so it just got worse and worse and worse, like I didn't think it was getting worse, but it was. And then I traveled the world and I thought and I kicked drugs for quite a long time, but alcohol was still like a huge part of my life. And I would like I've read, I've watched some of your podcasts about where you say you know, like everything you did you were thinking about like how you were going to drink, like how alcohol was going to fit into everything, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like even for me, like flying around, like because New Zealand is in the middle of nowhere, so you have to get flights for like 16 hours to get certain places, and I was like how am I going to get enough alcohol before I get on the flight and then space out enough alcohol during the flight, you know, like it was just all consuming, but I was still turning up to work, still, you know, doing well. And then it just got to a point I lost a friend of mine and I just started really drinking, like on my own drinking pot was a vodka a day and just being really messy.
Speaker 2:And then the drugs started again and yeah, and then something you know like you just have like that one horrendous experience and you're kind of like far out, I need to sort my shit out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and thank you for sharing that. I can definitely relate to a lot of it. I remember, even growing up in the States, knowing you were from the UK, there was a show that I would watch that from the UK called Skins, and it was basically a whole bunch of like teenagers just like doing lots of crazy drugs and I was like that's so cool that I was like no, that's not cool.
Speaker 2:That's how we grow up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I grew up in the 90s I'm there, yeah. So when I was growing up, like taking E, going at raves, you know, we could go to the pub, like when we were like 16, 17,. If we just go to our local, like, yeah, it's real, it's real common. But I think there comes a point where you know you are the crazy one and that's just your whole. My whole identity was like. So I used to get called Patsy for a long time. Oh my God, if my friends saw this now from AppFab, because she was yeah.
Speaker 2:And like I said in everyone's, like I was just Pat C, he's just. You know, here's who he is. But looking back like that's kind of sad because it was just cause I was always wasted, yeah, and disconnected from the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned how hard it was at first, or difficults. What did you, what tools or skills did you use when you were getting sober to help get you there and keep you there?
Speaker 2:Oh, so I was that. You know you get, you get medically, they do the thing with the medic medicine to stop you from, you know, your body from crapping out. Yeah, so I had all that. And then what happened after that I don't know about you, but my memory is like from then is quite hazy at times, like I have to really think about what happened because, like I was, my brain was so like screwed up, screwed up, like from coming off everything. So hang on. Oh, and then I went to see this counselor once a week through it was free, through the hospital. She was an Irish girl and so we connected quite well. But you know she was an Irish drug and alcohol counselor in New Zealand. So you know I really connected with her. She really understood like where I'd come from, my background and you know all of that. And yeah, she helped me through the initial part. And then what did?
Speaker 1:I do, and then and then I just stayed sober.
Speaker 2:And it just I just had. I was lucky, I had good friends that were like you know, that had kind of. I had older friends. So in our friendship, my friendship gay and friendship group here there's like a lot of expats Like, but like a lot of them are in, like like some of my really close friends here and they're like they're in there, like they're in their early or mid fifties now, so they've had a lot of life experience and they've had seen and you know they're just like you know, wise old guys. They just gave me wise old gay advice, like you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was gonna say like, in addition to having just great friends in general, did you have other sober people in your life that were able to help kind of walk you through?
Speaker 2:that, yeah, not to start with. I'm just trying to think if I had anyone who was oh, I had one friend he was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I did have one guy. He was sober. He went to Australia. He moved to Australia, though, but he would come around now and again and we would talk it out, but I always thought it was really important for me to still.
Speaker 2:I got rid of a lot of friends that they naturally dropped off, and then the friends that was left. They were always around, but I didn't realise that they were bowing out of parties earlier and you know like maybe not inviting me for dinners because they knew that I wouldn't really eat and I'd just get drunk. So they were always there and they were always looking out for me. I just didn't give them enough time, Doesn't that make sense? Yeah, I was giving the wrong people the time, and these, like I mean, I was just awful. I would say they were like my geeky mates, Like they would play guitar, and you know, I thought they were boring at times and stuff like that, but actually now it's like you know, we play guitar and sit around on Sundays and have like poplucks, and you know, yeah, that's awesome and I know you mentioned how in your active addiction, how losing a friend caused a lot of grief.
Speaker 1:I understand that's also something that you went through recently as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and losing my mate and niche, I think kickstart my friend before kickstarted the alcohol, like really ramped it up, like the way he passed away was not cool. And then my friend, who at Christmas was like my best friend you know in the world he wasn't sober, david Like he's Irish, and we moved to New Zealand at the same time and we actually met each other on Paddy's day. So it's ironic that we're doing this today, because this is really the day that me, him and my other friend met. So yeah, it's kind of crazy. I was thinking about it today and he passed away at Christmas and he was a big advocate for me to not drink so much, so that he didn't speak to me for a whole year and I don't remember him not talking to me, so he just kind of watched me from, but he said he couldn't watch me do it to myself. So then he came back when I got sober.
Speaker 2:But yeah he passed away at Christmas and it was horrible and I thought I would. Before it happened, I always used to say if anything ever happened to him or our other friend, that would be it. I'd probably be off the wagon. It's probably one of the only things I could think of. That would really hit me over the edge.
Speaker 2:And then it fucking happened and I was like far out. So I definitely had moments, not while it was happening, but once the dust had all settled and I was on my own. Like you know, when someone dies, everyone kind of yuled together a lot. And then, yeah, and then, because he was Irish, his family came over and took his body back and then we had like three memorials for him. And once that had all happened and the memorial was over and I was on my own, that's when I started to really like think about drinking a lot.
Speaker 2:And I actually went to a pub and brought a drink and sat with it in the like corner of a pub and cried and people probably thought I was fucking nuts. And then I just like was like, do I really want to ruin my life? Like is this really what he would want for me? And I just left it and got up and walked out. But that's when I realized that I needed that. I was like you know, because when it was happening, I think people were worried I was going to fall off the wagon as well as mourning him, and I was trying to like make sure everyone knew that I was. I was fine, Like don't worry about me Like I've got this and I suppose I did have it, but then when I was on my own, I don't think I was like personally processing. You know, do you have a name, that alcohol demon? Do you name him? Mine's called Gary.
Speaker 1:Mine does not have a name. Like Gary. I know that I've used some interesting adjectives and therapy and coaching that they've called me out on for the way that I talk about my disease, but I've never named it like that, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So mine's called Gary and I named him Gary. He's why he's he's the wife's calling the local demon. And so he was having a field day. You know, he was like yay, this is my in, so let's have a little word with him. I think I didn't realize how much he'd snuck in and yeah, like, yeah, but grief is grief, right, like it's passing. And now I just want to like, do well, and I know that he would be proud of me and you know, I mean so oftentimes.
Speaker 1:that's the type of thing that a lot of us will think when we enter the rooms you know, or start getting sober of how could I get through the passing of this loved one or the end of this relationship or this huge change in my life and thank you so much for being open to even sharing about how far it went for you. But from that moment that you, like, walked away from that drink in the pub, what did you do differently to kind of get that help or support that you might not have been willing to accept before, when you were saying everything's fine?
Speaker 2:What did I do? I think I told people so I know that when I hide things that's not good Like if I hadn't have gone and told my mate, my, my, our mind and his other. There was three of us like you know, you know what the guys like, three of me goes me, him and Elliot. And now there's just me and Elliot. But yeah, I rang him and I told him and I told him like what happened? And you know everyone's like why don't you ring me? And I was like, well, because I wasn't thinking, because I wouldn't have done it. You know everyone.
Speaker 2:And then I just I don't know, I don't go to the rooms. We don't really have them in New Zealand, like we don't have. We have. We used to have gay, like a gay one, but it was once a week. It's not a very big country. So a lot of people that are sober. I've got a lot more sober queer friends now because since I've become sober and because I was such a messy bitch, people have been like, oh fuck, if he can do it. And then you know, bring each out and say, oh, andy, how did you? You know, I was like, give them the direction, the places to go. And yeah, I've got quite a few sober friends now and we kind of just get together and talk a lot.
Speaker 2:And we actually, you know, we all go to the same parties like this.
Speaker 1:it's tiny here, yeah it definitely helps going to when you go out to parties and things. I've learned like having someone sober, even if you're not like bodyed up with them the entire time. Just knowing that there's someone else in the room who won't be drinking, it makes you feel less alone. Take a pregnant girl, yeah most of my female friends are lesbians or past the age of having children, so won't apply to me. But yes, that would be good advice as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean I think you, like you know, for me being sober has been quite a journey. But I look at other sober people and, like you, listen to their stories and stuff and you think, oh, that's like sober plus.
Speaker 2:You know I've got my plus, but you're like to me, yours is like wow, that's so. You know, and suppose, suppose, like sharing and doing this kind of stuff, and you know, being open with each other it does help. You know, for a long time I didn't talk to, so I didn't have any kind of support, I just relied on myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's so. Oftentimes we're drawn to just say, like I can do it, it's not a problem. I was always raised with the mindset that you being able to get things through, get through things or get over things by yourself means that you're stronger than if you had to ask for help. That it's almost a sign of weakness, and so having to learn that as an adult, in my sobriety at least, that I'm strongest when I'm asking for help has been certainly a flip from the way that I was raised.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I still don't really know how to. I still don't like asking for help, like I still like to think I can do it on my own. But when you've got good friends around you that have known you for some from addiction into sobriety, they know like they're like what's going on, bitch, yeah, you know like what's kind of normal with you and like in that, like we don't fuck around, like we're like what the fuck is going on. Yeah, it's not, it's not soft. No, it's not a soft ask.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in addition to having some sober friends that have you found locally, we also had the pleasure of meeting online. Do you, how did you get into or connected to a sober community online?
Speaker 2:Just Google it. I think sober babes. Do you know sober babes?
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:I brought his cup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a cup. I have a shirt that I wear out sometimes, so yeah, he is, yeah, I.
Speaker 2:So I loved his page because it was like yeah, just because we're sober doesn't mean that we have to lose like being bad bitches, right.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:So that was the first page, your page. Obviously I really liked that guy. Remember I texted you about a message about that we guy you had on. He was fascinating.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I've had some amazing guys.
Speaker 2:Yes, I watched his. I really, really like, I really enjoyed. I found it's just find it fascinating and I think it's so important, Like when you get sober right, the different generations and why and what has happened to them, and the different things and the way the community like sort of deals with us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely know, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've loved how it seems like we all have different specific things that happened during our stories, depending on what was going on in the world or how things have changed from like the 70s, 80s, 90s odds into now, and that's why I love having people of different lengths of recovery, because I have a lot of people on that have maybe just less than a year, and then I have some people on that have decades and decades, and so you get to see, though, at the end of the day, no matter whether someone's telling their story about getting sober in the 90s or getting sober in 2024, a lot of times we're able to all identify with the feelings that we're all having, even if the specifics of where we were, what we were doing were, might have been a little different depending on the times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because listening to him it was like, wow, that would be rough. You think you've got it tough and then you listen to people and you're like fuck wow. It's not. It's what I mean. You can be happy about your day and your sobriety and the fact that you just have to walk 10 minutes to work and there's a beach right there and you can't complain. Yeah, you can. Yeah, I think traveling is a big one as well. You know, when you're going traveling and stuff and being sober, that's hard.
Speaker 1:Is it still hard? Because I know that you said traveling beforehand was so difficult, with the mental gymnastics of how you can drink through the flights. How is traveling now sober?
Speaker 2:Where have I been since I've been sober Australia. I think it's fine because, like with Instagram, you can. So if I came to Australia, I think if I came to the States right, like I've never been, but I'm pretty sure if I decided I wanted to go to like Chicago or you know someplace, I could jump online or message someone who I knew was sober and be like where do you go? Who can you put me in touch with someone? You know, that's why your kind of page is quite good. I could just stalk your page and find someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sorry at this point with all my guests, there'll be someone wherever you're going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like well, you know where, where do I go, like, do you want to go for dinner, or you know, just connect with people in a different way. I'm not a huge fan of going to gay bars. I think because I spent so many years in them, like from like 16 to I think I stopped going. I haven't stopped, I'll still go, but no, I was in there every night when I was a kid, like, and then I just kind of got over it, like I don't, you can't hear people, you can't have a good conversation all the time, like you know it's just about dancing, which is nice but I think art galleries and cafes and you know, like that kind of stuff is probably more where I'm at but I think I thought I wasn't like that.
Speaker 2:So I thought against it hard.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you've embraced it today.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And thank you so much for for sharing a little bit of your story. It's been a pleasure and we'll have to have you back, but in the meantime, how can listeners find you if they wanted to connect on Instagram or online?
Speaker 2:Oh, just on my Instagram.
Speaker 1:I will put your at in the show notes so that people could follow you.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah yeah, yeah, so good.
Speaker 1:All right, excellent. Well, thank you so much, andy, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:You too.
Speaker 1:All right, and back to you future, steve, and good luck on your blanket. Hey there, welcome back. Super sober heroes. It's Steve.
Speaker 1:And yes, during the interview especially if you were watching you really got to see Andy's ADHD and how he was able to knit the entire time he was talking, and it just made me think of so many of the different ways that I display my symptoms of ADHD and how I was diagnosed in college, which is later than most, but it was before I got sober, but it was like untreated and I never took medication for it, and so I did some research that I thought was funny or interesting, because I can you know, recently there was J9 who talked about their ADHD diagnosis and sobriety. We had Chad talk about it recently, and then Andy talks about it, and I'm seeing all these interviews I've been having recently talking about an experience that I can somewhat relate to, although it happened somewhat out of order. And upon doing some research, I found this great article at addictionscom that I will give you the highlights from so that you don't have to read it, or, if you want, I'll be sure to cite it in the show notes so you can read it as well if you'd like, with all the extra details and the super sciency stuff that I'm trying to make sound in a way that makes sense, for me at least. So what I really found interesting is that 8.4% of children and 2.5% of adults are estimated to have ADHD, but meanwhile, when you look at addicts, 25% of people in recovery have a diagnosis of ADHD, which is a lot more than 8.4%. So it seems like we generally have it. I you know again, I'm not sure the science behind the correlation between the two.
Speaker 1:In terms of the why I am here to report that with the statistics, though, there definitely is something there, and it could be very likely the way that we try and self treat because we don't have the diagnosis or we don't have the medication required to help tune it off, so we end up searching for other ways, like alcohol, to help turn things down. At least that's what my experience was like. 40% of children with ADHD, I also read use alcohol, while 22% is the average of youths using alcohol that don't have the ADHD diagnosis. So it shows that even from a young age, and even with having a diagnosis, that you can be more likely to be drinking alcohol, and as you, as your alcoholism progresses often. I guess so too, too does the chances that will be diagnosed with ADHD, because 25% you know people in recovery having a diagnosis one in four, that's a very large percent of people. If that statistic translates to the way that I see it and it just seems recently, at least with my guess, as they're talking about it that it definitely does, because about one in four guests that I'm talking to has been able to relate to that recently the science that I do understand is that when you have ADHD, one of the side effects or things that happens with it is that you're dope, you have a dopamine deficiency and dopamine being like your happiness thing, you have trouble controlling that. You want to make it feel better and we tell ourselves that alcohol can help. That. For those of you who are still listening, who are like this is all sounds kind of interesting, and maybe I have ADHD Apparently.
Speaker 1:There are two types I know of hyperactive, impulsive ADHD is the one that I have the most symptoms generally, with the symptoms including fidgeting, difficulty staying seated I'm shaking my left leg as we speak and I do that in most meetings. Running or climbing when inappropriate. I feels more of a childhood thing, but I mean I can definitely there times are in the middle of the day, I would go running if I could, and always being on the go, I definitely, when I am focused in the zone, get like that. Talk it of NIS. I mean, I'm a podcaster. Hello, interrupting conversations or blurting out answers is something that I've learned to control myself with, but it definitely was an impulse, especially with young little Steve. Just like shouting out the answers in class all the time, my teachers would hate me. And difficulty waiting online. That's why I pay for the fast pass today. And intruding on others, I try not to do now in sobriety. But there's also the inattentive ADHD which I can also have. Some of these symptoms, which include struggling to pay close attention to details or making careless mistakes. I do my best to edit these episodes perfectly, but occasionally they're like there'll be a careless mistake I missed along the way and I'll try and catch and fix on the backside, but guilty. Difficulty staying focused on tasks or activities. What was I doing? No, I'm kidding, but it happens.
Speaker 1:Inability to listen during conversations that's one thing I love about my coaching, like tools and practices that I have learned as an adult how to actively listen, as I think that many of you have seen as the episodes have aired and as I've gotten more comfortable interviewing people. I think a lot of that comes from the fact that I have also learned how to listen more attentively and more actively, and but it's something that I had to learn. It's something that didn't come easy to me. And starting tasks and quickly losing focus, disorganization and struggling to organize, avoiding or disliking tasks requiring sustained attention, often losing possessions I always joke that it's because of all the alcohol and drugs that I did, but it could also be my ADHD as to why I'm constantly losing my shit, not like my mental shit. I actually have that under control right now, right now, and my emotional shit's pretty zen too, but I still lose my physical stuff all the time ADHD and forgetting to complete daily tasks like chores and errands.
Speaker 1:I have so many reminders and systems set in place so that that doesn't happen to me, but without those reminders I would be lost, without my smart devices and my different to do listen systems that I've created in place to build around me to help for the fact that I do have ADHD, and it sounds like it's something that a lot of people have experienced in recovery. So I hope you enjoyed so much of Andy's interview you know there was so much more that he was able to share, especially or about grief, that I found was very powerful and I'm sure will help a lot of people. But the one thing that that reached out to me or that like left me chewing over the information long after I stopped recording and said goodbye to him, was the ADHD correlation between that and addiction. So if you have an ADHD diagnosis that you only gotten sobriety, or if you just listened to all of these symptoms, as well as the shares from these past couple episodes that have mentioned what their experiences was like, definitely recommend doing some research online into how to get treated for it, because I am not a doctor and I cannot diagnose you any more than I'm any other sort of expert that you should be taking life advice. These are all suggestions or ideas or things that I'm sharing with you that I found online that I will sort, or a site so that you can verify and investigate yourself, but it is interesting and I'd love to talk about it more. So you can always reach out to me.
Speaker 1:My DMs are always open, as they say. Online you can message me on Facebook. You can message or DM me on Instagram. I'm at gay a podcast pretty much everywhere and you can also email me at Steve at sober Stevecom. I appreciate you listening to another great episode of gay a, and I do still have a few more interviews. I've already recorded that I have coming up that I look forward to sharing with you when I return from podcast evolutions and can update you on how that was in the intro. And until that time, just enjoy staying sober, friends. Bye.